Families who don’t look alike: Encountering adoption across cultures

Steph Stock:

Creating a multicultural family happens in many different ways. And we explore that on this podcast, but for today’s conversation I’m interested in adoption across cultures.

a Red Table Talk interview in: 2019

[RED TABLE TALK CLIP] “I at one point had a very difficult time thinking of White families adopting Black children, and… one of the things I had to discover about myself and some of my bias towards it was that I was actually, my attitude towards it was actually perpetrating the very thing that I fight against, which is racism… “

In: 2020

Carly is a creative, storyteller, writer and movement director and she took a moment to talk to me about her experience being transracially adopted by White parents.

CARLY “there's a lot of friction there with being trans racially adopted and being Black children… “I was so focused on the fact that I had two White parents in the household that I did not physically look like either parent because I was adopted and not biologically conceived from them.”

I have to admit I had never heard of the term transracial adoption before this but Carly is exceptionally kind and super patient as I ask her really personal questions.

I want to be clear that this conversation is not a condemnation of transracial adoption nor is it a commentary on whether adopting outside of one’s race and culture is right or wrong. Instead, my intention is to get insight into one person's experience about finding a sense of belonging, building community and learning more about what it feels like when you don’t look like your family.

[Cue Intro Music]

Steph Stock: So you were the first person who introduced me to the term Transracial adoption. When I heard transracial, I mean, I kind of could gather maybe what it meant, but I definitely had to like Google because I had never heard of that before. And then when I was thinking about it, I had to check myself and my own bias because I was like, wait, anytime you're not the first person that I've met who is adopted. And I was like, anytime someone has told me that they are adopted. I think I automatically assume that at least one of their parents is White.

Carly Que: Mmm.

Steph Stock:

That was huge for me in ways that I was like, whoa. And that's what made me wanna jump on the phone with you

Carly Que:

That's interesting… I think there's a lot of biases around just what we perceive in our minds when we hear many words around family or upbringing and what that looks like.

Steph Stock:

I don't know if embarrassed is the right way to feel, but I did feel like a sense of shame around, around

Carly Que:

Hmm

Steph Stock:

that realization…

Carly Que:

what's interesting about it for me is something that I was about, I learned or came to my own understanding about a month ago was I think I had a lot of just struggles and understanding about my identity growing up because I had two White parents in the household and I grew up around two White parents. But for me, the takeaway that I finally came to was because I'm Mixed race, because I am both Black and White. If I was not adopted and I had lived in a two-parent household, biologically, there still would have been one White parent in the household. And that was very eye-opening for me because that was something that I had not grasped. I was so focused on the fact that I had two White parents in the household that I did not physically look like either parent because I was adopted and not biologically conceived from them. So that's what interests me. That's almost this flip side of it. from what you had thought versus what I had perceived as me being so incredibly different when the reality is that one White parent still would have been part of my story and is part of my story.

Steph Stock:

some of these questions may sound like a little elementary, and it's quite honestly because I've never had the opportunity to speak to somebody so candidly about their birth story and their adoption story.[8:20][8:30] I'm just grateful for this opportunity to be able to ask.

Carly Que:

I don't think it's elementary because there are people that if you grow up in foster care system or you're just adopted later in life, you know, I could technically have been adopted at any point in my 27 years of life. So I think it's also I think that's important, though, to understand that, you know, I was adopted at birth just to give some background, I am the second of two that is transracially adopted in my household. My older brother is also transracially adopted and we are not related by blood. So I always knew the basics around the fact that I was adopted. There's closed and open adoptions. I was a closed adoption, which means that once I was born, I was taken from my birth mother and It was a closed adoption in the sense that there was not supposed to be communication between her and my parents about anything relating to me or otherwise, and there would be lawyers that would get involved if things were to try to pry themselves open. And on the flip side, of course, open adoption is where both the adopted parents and the biological parents, or at least biological mother, can decide to have open dialogue and conversation, potentially visits. For closed adoption, I will say once you're 18, that law falls away. So after you're 18, of course, you're technically an adult and can do as you wish. But that was for both me and my brother. They were both closed adoptions.

Steph Stock:

Do you feel like you two had each other in that experience or was it just something in your family overall you didn't talk about?

Carly Que:

I would say more of the latter. And we have definitely responded to it in different ways…umm and i think this relates to I’d say psychologically, some people react more externally, some are more internal about it…He just wanted to, I think, go and live his life and be who he is and be with whatever community spoke to him and not really think, speak, talk about the fact that he's transracially adopted, however he want to identify in the moment where I... Definitely internalized, I had a lot of shame around not feeling Black enough. I had a lot of shame around not really fitting into White groups, to not even necessarily fitting into Mixed race groups because I still didn't have the one Black parent in the household.again, I go back to the psychology. Two people can perceive the same thing as me and my brother did, which is the fact that we were transracially adopted in the same household with the same parents in the same town. but we responded to it differently in terms of the way that we approached and navigated and navigate currently in the world.

Steph Stock:

Do you remember having… your first conversation or even a vivid memory of when race came up in your family and it was something that at least had to have been acknowledged if not talked about?

Carly Que:

I do remember there was a time in middle school where a mother of a friend of mine had asked to the effect of, which I also didn't realize how racist of a phrase this was, but something about the mailman. And my mother, if my dad was the stepfather and she knew both, this parent knew both of my parents because of the school I went to and her daughter was at the schools where both my parents taught. This obviously was reiterated to my parents, not in a, oh my gosh, she said this, but in a, I'm so confused of what this even means. Mom, why is she asking if you were involved with the mailman? I've never seen a mailman come up to that. Like we get our mail in the slot kind of conversation going on. And I, again, those conversations weren't less about the educating aspect. It was more about my parents being so overwhelmed in their own emotion about the fact that she would say it, the fact of what that meant if she was saying those things or asking those things. And more so just of again, how to present myself the next time I'm faced with that question.Where I do think my parents failed on that part is it was more about how do we present ourselves versus how do we educate and sometimes not be the most polite around things that are so racist.

Steph Stock:

Have you ever asked your parents why they decided to adopt transracially?

Carly Que:

I think my parents own ignorance of Blackness and the variety and the fact that Blackness is not monolithic nor is it happening to. raising Black children shouldn't be from a solely fear-based lens of, again, how always to present ourselves, how always to, you know, deflect the conversation or how to make sure that no one can step on our toes, but it wasn't really about also educating or building up that inner worth as well, because the questions and things that we were facing, whether they were subtle or more direct, definitely they affected you and they affected me because they weren't something that I had any reasoning behind.

Steph:

Have you had that discussion with them or is that too hard of a topic to broach?

Carly Que:

So the conversations around adoption with my parents are very tricky because it was a very sensitive topic for my mother. She physically can't have kids because of health reasons relating to her ovaries. And so I know that as little as we do know about the process in which they tried to get pregnant and then decided to adopt, that it was a very hard decision. And I don't want to say that in the sense that adopting was like this last resort and like, my mom approached it as, oh, I guess I'll just adopt some children. Uh, but it was definitely something that. I found a lot of resistance with, which made it hard for me to understand and accept my adoption because we were toggling with my mom's feelings specifically and my own need to understand more about the process. my parents are both from Michigan, grew up in a very small town, and they met at Saginaw State, which is a very, very small part of Michigan. They had that understanding from being in the Midwest and not having any multiculturalism in there. own generational background that of course wasn't based in Whiteness, German, Polish was where those ethnic backgrounds. Not having any of that understanding and bringing it over to California growing up in a town called Antelope Valley, which is what some people call the armpit of Southern California. It's about two hours south of Bakersfield. It looks a lot like Bakersfield, dry, dusty. non-progressive, not a lot of understanding the town was almost segregated in a socio-economic aspect. Creativity wasn't booming there. People weren't having conversations around anything that was not the mainstream model. there's a lot of friction there with being transracially adopted and being Black children. in a what I would consider non-progressive part of Southern California,I was not seeing representation, I was not hearing stories, I was not understanding anything about representation both in the home or in my external environment and not really having the context stand up for myself, educate others, or really just have an understanding of my family's background because it was very hush other than like the facts, the visual facts. For me, it was a lot of not being able to ask and not really getting answers when I did.

I'm a why person. So I will push a why even if someone doesn't have a why. And that has been a learning curve with my parents. And that's how I've always moved through the world. And sometimes it's just not like that for everyone. And so when I ask my parents that, They simply, again, some ignorance and not knowing the weight of their words, but they said, we had tried to have children. We were trying to steer as clear away from more of like chemical treatments like in vitro, things like that. We just wanted children. And then the follow-up part was, and it's a lot easier to find, or excuse me, it's a lot easier to adopt. non-White children. And I'm probably actually making these words a little bit smoother. I think there's something about the availability around non-White children, which is statistically and data-driven from a data-driven perspective. That is true. If, you know, you are adopting, finding a child to adopt, there are more non-White babies to adopt for adoption than there are White babies.

Steph

and economic changes. Before: 1970

I will say though that my mom always finishes that thought or that conversation. And my mom's a very, she's not spiritual or hippie or in that wavelength at all, but she is very, very connected to her body. And she always says that both me and my brother, when they were deciding to adopt or not, She said her intuition spoke to her and she said I just knew it was right. And so I would say as much as I'm so about the why and the context and but why did you do this and didn't you know all the weight that comes with it? It's Black children in America and I can ramble on. I think there's something very pure and almost beautiful about the fact that they were like, well as White people, no, we don't know the full. weight of adopting Black children because we aren't Black, even though you can know these things. No other aspects of it, of course, from what you have gleaned or read or seen or perhaps experienced through someone else, but they always go back to this very simplistic state, specifically my mother, that they knew that both me and my brother at those times were the children for them. With me specifically, my mom says that there was a White family. I really, really liked her and my father and wanted them to adopt and really were pushing for their child to be adopted to them. And she was like, it just didn't feel right. And she was like, as soon as there was a connection made with my biological mother, she was like, it felt right. And so I say that to give both sides of that story to not paint anything, but also that there is something. There's something uniquely beautiful about the simplistic aspect of I just knew in my female driven intuition that you were the child for me.

Steph Stock:

I agree. I think that's so beautiful. Your mom had the opportunity to meet your biological mother. Have you ever asked her questions about your biological mother?

Carly Que:

I think that was something that was almost more off topic or we cannot speak on even more so than the adoption itself. And I think because if I were to just perceive my own mother's emotions around it, this idea of mother. And so if I even use the words of like, I wanna know about my biological mother and. And I did, I did pry, especially when I was in my teenage years and I was really trying to do any and everything to get all my rage and hormonal imbalances and need for identity out. It was always prying at me. She had met my biological mother. My biological father was not in the picture. And so there wasn't a lot that was said. I know the one time that I have spoken to my biological mother, who I came in contact with during the pandemic through 23andMe, while looking for my biological father. She had a lot of things to say about my adopted mother, but my adopted mother. doesn't have a lot to say about my biological mother other than as it relates to me. Again, going back to the, it just felt right.

Steph Stock:

appened for you personally in: 2020

Carly Que:

Mm-hmm. I think there was a lot, I mean, we were all doing a lot of emotions. I now know looking back that I was really on this brink of not having, at the time it was undiagnosed neurodivergence. It was not being taken care of. It was not being medicated. It was completely off of the rails. So you mix the depression and anxiety that comes with having ADHD. into that threshold, had a lot of issues with drinking, I think just numbing the feelings going on in my body. But as we were in this horrific lull, as I called, and I say a lull because I wasn't working, there's a lot of time to just be with myself. And I felt like I was losing my mind. And that trajectory basically took me back to my parents' house, where I moved back to California. I lived with them for six months. obtained a new job and I was in a place with my mental health where I could hardly get out of bed to get on the computer to do said job. And it was really just like, I need answers. And it's so much more than I need to know about this family tree. It's like, I need to know what was going on in my parents' brains or if there's any health history that I can grab because I need to know how to get healthier. And I really, again, I think always this longing, again, that shame coming up of not feeling Black enough or not feeling fully accepted into the Black community. I was like, I solely want to look for my father. It was kind of a twofold. It's like, I'm going to get answers. And I was like, and I'm going to feel Black enough now. Through that, I still have not found my biological father, but doing 23andMe, that's how I first learned about the background that I was. and mostly Nigerian and then British and Irish is the other side of that. That was through 23andMe's DNA test.

Steph Stock:

Do you identify if someone were to ask you what are you Mixed with?

Carly Que:

I have recently, but for the most part, I just say Black and White. And I feel like until I can go to said countries and really sit with it and be like, does this speak to how I feel in my body? And does this really do I feel my ancestors on both sides? Do I feel that? I almost don't feel like it's right because I don't have enough cultural knowledge and context. I can tell you things about Nigeria, I can tell you things about the UK, I can tell you things about Ireland, but I think I need to be there in order for me to feel like, yes, this is who I am.

Steph Stock:

you said before I never felt Black enough which I think is something that so many Mixed kids regardless of being adopted or not can relate to but then you mentioned that it took you a while to maybe understand Blackness, or that's not something that was within your home. So did you feel like you had to get to know Black culture before you could claim being Black?

Carly Que:

I think it's a more nuanced question in the sense of how we look at being African American versus being from Africa. And I would say that's what it goes back to, which is, you know, layered. I think for me growing up not feeling Black enough was I think the phrase I usually use is I went to barbecues, not cookouts. So that's... of inherent moving, you know, I've never been to Black church, but I know that gospel music when I've listened to it on different music platforms or been to live events makes me feel something that I know I am inherently Black. So there's these aspects that I feel like I've always felt uncomfortable to even step into, but that still was a part of what I believe is the African-American culture, whereas being derivative of Africa and the culture specifically of Nigeria, Nigerian food, the language, the dialect, the, I would say gender roles, the textures and the clothing, all of that is so far away from me where... I can navigate and get myself a little bit closer to what I consider the African American experience in America. So I think that's why for me, they're a little separate in terms of how I would get to that understanding or feeling that way. And like I said, I think that's a much bigger conversation, but that at least is how I have approached it. And I would say probably haven't understood that approach until you asked that question and we talked about it. So. I think I'm also processing and speaking and draft and learning in real time too.

Steph Stock:

Totally. Aren't we all at this point?It's not like a formal education, but when did you start? Learning more and becoming more familiar with Black culture because it sounds like it is something that you had to intentionally seek out.

Carly Que:

Hmm. I would say that I think I subconsciously sought it out whenever I was attracted to crushing on dating Black people. And always, I think I can say specifically, I mean, I identify as queer, but I will say specifically with Black men. I think we all have fantasies of the future with someone that we're interested in. Mine is very different. to a point specifically after college. So when I was out in New York, not so much anymore. But in my early 20s, I definitely would meet someone and be in their world and dating them and think about when do I get to meet their mom? And not in the sense of I can't wait for this person to put a ring on it or to move into that next step. It was more so I think I was just craving this. experience about the Black female role model and that mentorship and that family aspect. Like I think I just so inherently crave that, that almost seemed to be on top of mind more than getting to know this person. It was like, how can I get as, when do I get closer to the things that made them who they are? Because I was curious and like in a way, like I I think I subconsciously was like obsessed with this need to have it. And there is a longing for that. I think it is so imperative. I know I spoke about my biological father who's Black, but that's because of my, the makeup of the two people that conceived me. I think for me, the Black female, that role model nature is something that I really, I really desired. The seeking out turned more into being action oriented once I was in California.I would seek Blackness or learning about culture through dating. it was so much more private. It was one-on-one and something I can navigate without being in the eyes, without being rejected because I assume if this person is dating me or at least having some sort of relation with me, they like me at least. somewhat and so if there was anything I was getting quote-unquote wrong if there was anything I was navigating that I was unsure about I've Only asking that question once or I was only learning about this one person's perspective and I was with them usually having these Observations and Inclinations and just overall understanding through their perspective versus, you know when I think of community I think of 50 100 600, it's a lot of people versus this one off experience that if we were to sub seen each other we would go about our different ways and no one would really know about it where I think community and being in Black culture which I think of as more than individualistic would be a lot more confronting and those feelings that would come up would be amplified and multiplied by how many people are in this space.

Steph Stock:

that, okay, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's really interesting to me too, because I know a lot of people that would be nervous about the intimacy of that one-on-one experience. And you're saying, no, I wouldn't shy away from that. In fact, I welcome that and it's preferred. I also know you as an individual and I'm like, yeah, that tracks. That's like

Carly Que:

Yes,

Steph Stock:

how Carly

Carly Que:

I trust.

Steph Stock:

learns. She's very much like a one-on-one person.

Carly Que:

Mm-hmm. I will say though, I was doing a lot of, again, fly on the wall observation for those, I would say, you know, teen, college, early 20s of not, I mean, I wasn't telling necessarily the people I was dating that I was transracially adopted. I wasn't really telling them that I had two White parents. I started doing that when I was finding myself dating Black people. people that had very strong opinions about Whiteness. And it was like, this is of course something I have to bring to the table now. Like, how do you feel about me now? Because I now have, I have two White parents. How do you feel now about the statement you just said? And not to put people on the spot, but to really like almost kind of give them an education aspect of you never know who's in the room kind of thing. Now I'm very

Steph Stock:

Did you?

Carly Que:

upfront of.

Steph Stock:

I was going to say, did you ever have any situations where... It was like we can't move forward because this is a part of who I am.

Carly Que

indirectly yes. And I think as I started, because it did happen a couple times, less than five, but seemed to happen around the same time in my life, where just the response I found at the third, fourth, fifth time this happened told me everything I needed to know. Everyone is privy to their own opinion, and I don't want someone to change that opinion. in the moment to appease me, especially if they don't feel that way. But I think the response said a lot. And I do think in regards to whatever you're speaking to, an overarching generalization about anything or anyone to me says a lot about the way someone sees the world, because it avoids curiosity. It's an assumption. Or it's making a generalization off of one instance. I don't love that because you can make an assumption off of me from seeing me in that one instance and there's so much behind me as I believe there is for everyone else.

STEPH STOCK In this way I relate to Carly. I’m not adopted but what I realized is that those who are transracial adopted exist in this middle ground just like Mixed folks. We are all by products of a society that is dedicated to pluralism and equality but also polarized by racism and its inequities.

Carly Que:

I think as an adult, I was able to see more of myself in different Black subgroups. And I was able to see more of the things that I had always felt were the White part of me. That also differed from my White household and from my White parents that I was confused by. So for example, I think always being really

Steph Stock:

Like what?

Carly Que:

k to California in the end of: 2020

Steph Stock:

Totally.

Carly Que:

this imposter syndrome of they're gonna know, they're gonna know that I was raised in a White household, they're gonna know that I'm almost like, a fraud Black person because I don't fully know everything that comes with being raised in a Black household. So I think seeing that just helped open my perspective and find more acceptance and also realize that I think especially as you become an older person, a more experienced adults, no one is thinking that deep about you or trying to read you the way that I was projecting.

Steph Stock:

I think we have the luxury of living in a big city, because so much of what you just said just resonated with my small town girl self. the ideas that Black people don't hike or we don't like nature or we don't swim or ski or do yoga, those are all things that really were true when I was growing up in my small town. But then when you get older, you have to ask yourself why. Is it inaccessible? Is it not? There's more to the story than just Black people don't do that. And it's not because we can't or we don't want to. I think that it's really interesting that you said that you sought out Black families. I didn't know the term transracially adopted then, but he is a Black man who's adopted into a White family. We grew up in a predominantly White society. And I'll never forget one time. I was talking about something and he didn't quite catch it. I don't even remember what it was. But I was saying how I go home every two years to see my family in Alabama for my family reunion. And I was like, you would love it. And he looked at me and he was like, no, I wouldn't hate that. It makes me really uncomfortable to be around a lot of Black people. And I was so surprised. because I was like, I've never known, doesn't it make you uncomfortable? People literally call us like Blackie in this place. You're not uncomfortable here. I remember being so shocked by that. So I find it really interesting that you handled it in a different perspective. You're like, I desire to be with this community. I want to be with this community. How do I find the Black matriarch? Bring me to her.

Carly Que:

Okay.

Steph Stock:

When other people are like, no, that's okay. I, for fear of, you know, I don't fit in or I don't understand or I don't belong. That's just really fascinating to me. You have so many intersections to your identity, as many of us do. Do you feel like you need to present that? Like when you were a child, you know, you had this way that you had to present yourself. It sounds like your family, that was important to them. Do you feel like you have to present all of these intersections when you enter a Black space?

Carly Que:

I would say I'm definitely, whether I want to fully embrace that or not, fully presenting, because I would say that's always been a way to, that's a defense mechanism, a way to protect myself. I think a way to make sure that I can navigate the room, coming in and feeling it out, feeling the energy, seeing if I notice anyone that might. of present aspects of myself visually or otherwise. Kind of being that fly on the wall, I would say it's the same thing. Even getting to know me is the first impression of me versus once you're ingrained into my life and close to me, or two very different people. And I think that's the same way that I've navigated Black spaces and not just Black spaces, but specifically for Black subgroups, it's me needing to ease my way in. and present and I think I'm more conscious of it now, but I would say there are times when I would try to present to appease other people, but it was so blatantly false that that, I guess, inner knowing of the masking or the performing came up. And I would say, you know, while I talk, when you were reflecting on me having more inclination to want to navigate these subgroups, that's a newer thing, I would say, as a child, as a tween, as a teen, it was just stay away, stay away, you don't belong here, stay away. So I think you mix that, which is still programmed in me, with the wanting to present in a certain way where everyone's liking you, which I think is something as humans we struggle with. then slowly but surely within those subgroups and getting closer to them and navigating them, finding people who just like me as I am. I'm getting closer to that latter part, which is the, you know, just showing up as myself and what I attract is what's for me.

Steph Stock:

How do you feel when you enter a Black space versus a White space? And I ask this question because I had to ask myself this growing up, I think relatively young. And I quickly realized that I didn't feel like... I definitely feel different in a Black space versus a White space, but it wasn't until I was a full grown adult that I realized that I was most uncomfortable when there was Mixed. I didn't like having White people and Black people together in a space and being there. That made me more uncomfortable than being with just Black people or just White people. And I had to dive deep into that. What I came to realize is because I'm from a segregated society, I'm from one of the most segregated cities in the states. A lot of times things go left when you have Black and White people together in one space. And it wasn't until I became an adult and I moved to bigger cities and traveled around the world and just had more life experience that I realized that you can coexist peacefully sometimes. And so I'm curious if you have asked yourself that question or if you've clocked it, how you feel when you enter Black spaces versus how you feel when you enter White spaces.

Carly Que:

That's such a good question.Mmm. I... I would say that I feel, no, okay. I'll break this down. I feel I can acclimate really well to White spaces because I grew up in them. But that also I still have those triggers of going into so many spaces as a child, both me and my brother are made by myself with my White parents where all eyes were on us. You could tell it wasn't comfortable. You could feel, I think as a sensitive person, I could feel how people thought about me without even having to say a word. So I think I can gauge really well what is a comfortable White space for me and what is not. I would say a lot of what I feel as uncomfortable or how I'll feel uncomfortable in Black spaces is a projection, a projection of not being enough or being too much and not enough all at the same time. More of, again, am I gonna be outed for not being Black enough? Am I going to be asked where I, of course, you had racist White people asking me, are telling me that I spoke so articulately, maybe I don't speak that articulately, as a Black child. also like almost projecting is someone going to call me out on that and Black spaces? Like why are you talking like that? So I think there's always this like I was waiting for someone to find me out or waiting for someone to question me or waiting for someone to just hate on me. So I think I created that own feeling of uncomfortableness. I would say now though having navigated more of those spaces, again having found more of my people. that isn't just Mixed race kids, isn't just Black or White kids, but just really the multicultural, the textured aspect of humanity is really who I navigate towards. I have found that to be what really makes me the most comfortable.

Steph Stock:

You mentioned previously that you didn't feel like you fit in with Mixed race kids growing up because you didn't have that experience of both cultures in the household. As you're an adult now, how has that changed?

Carly Que:

I think learning a lot about culture, learning a lot about race, learning a lot about Mixed race, when you aren't again, experiencing it in your day to day, you're having to learn it almost like a textbook, but life is your textbook. I think with Mixed race kids, I'll speak to specifically Mixed race women, or women identifying individuals. Something that I witnessed in college was this idea that there could only be one best Mixed race female or women presenting individual. I remember spending some time with people on the football team and... how they would almost rank us. And it was a known conversation that behind closed doors it was kind of almost like there can only be one of us in the room. And so those stories, of course, you absorb them. I remember even one person saying to me, and of course no one can see what I look like, but I am short and athletic and curvy. They said, if I could put your face on your so-and-so's body, I would have my dream woman. And said that to me as if that wasn't incredibly problematic. and wrong and rude. But those stories and those feelings and the way that I would hear other people talk specifically about Mixed race women also became this internalized projection of there can only be one of us. There's always a ranking of who's the prettiest, who's the best. And then also on the other side of that, the aspect of colorism, where it was this understanding around Mixed race with the lightness or the lighter shades of our skin tone. as it related to Black culture as a whole. So I think that is such a big nugget of my experience with Mixed race people and one that I've had to navigate, but also unlearn and educate myself just by getting to know people versus taking on other people's stories. I will say though with Mixed race people in general, I find myself to be so much more curious about them because I know now from what I've experienced specifically in Los Angeles. that there's so much more to the story. And there is for all humans. But I think like that, if I'm meeting a group of Mixed race people, there could be so many elements in so many countries and so many just different aspects of their identity that also speak to these different aspects of my identity, even if they don't mirror each other one to one. Because I think I take for granted a lot of times that I have access to these two different cultures in a way that people who are of the cultures, like monocultural people, don't have access to. I have a different

Carly Que:

Mmm.

Steph Stock:

access to both cultures.

Carly Que:

Yeah, I would say the question really started coming up in New York because I wasn't just surrounded by rich Black culture. I was surrounded by rich culture in general. I think that the questions also were more around, I mean, I think I will always be, I will always feel behind in Black history and learning about Black history and knowing more about Black history. So I do want to differ when I talk about Black culture versus Black history, because I believe that's always an ongoing learning around Black culture. And I think I learned best through experience and by putting myself into those spaces. into different spaces. Now in terms of getting resources, I mean there's always a book in my hand so I think that's a big way that I'm gleaning that information. I specifically listen to a podcast that breaks down what's happening in the world, Black pop culture, and then just more cadence and a nuanced conversation between the two podcast hosts who are both Black, and I see myself in both of them from a neurological level to a personality level. But I think there's always this part of me that's just trying to sidle up to get more of that information. I mean, like, for example, that podcast, I'm listening to it to learn more about the way Black people move while also like subtly gleaning what I see in myself without being like, okay, let me go put myself in these situations and put myself directly with these people. So I think it's never ending. It's never ending. quest, journey of mine.

Steph Stock:

I think it's incredible that you are saying these things and being so candid about it. But I find it fascinating because I was expecting to come in here and talk to you and be like, OK, because you are adopted, there'll be things that maybe won't be the same. But I think that they are the same as being just being on the outside of culture but also being within it. I just think you have a different perspective maybe than other Mixed-race kids, which

Carly Que:

Mm-hmm.

Steph Stock:

I think is incredible.

Carly Que:

But also like that's like the unifying thing, right? It's like you're hearing yourself in my story and I'm hearing myself in the things that you're saying in response to my story. So there's like that connecting piece too. And I could almost like break it down like these ideas around like, you know, how you're talking about the cooking thing and it's like, is that really what makes someone Black? Or is that a trope that we've created in society? Um, you know, if I pulled 25 heterosexual cis Black men, would the cooking thing be a non-negotiable? Like, you know, these are, these are things I just started thinking about from this sociological, psychological curiosity. But I, I think that's, that is comforting though, to know that those things and those anxieties, I think everyone has the imposter syndrome anxiety. but to know that also can relate to someone else's background as a Mixed race individual.

Steph Stock:

When you think about defining yourself for yourself and how you identify in the story that you tell yourself, you've done a lot of work here around your identity. If there is somebody else that was listening to this who's transracially adopted, maybe someone who's younger. Is there any advice that you would give them? Or even any advice that you would give to like your younger self?

Steph Stock:

What would you tell your younger Carly about navigating these tough topics?

Carly Que:

Yeah, continue to ask the questions. Always asking the why that sometimes felt too big made sense because now I see the world is so much bigger than the Antelope Valley that I grew up in, not just around how I saw life, but Blackness, Whiteness, perspective there. And then I think... just I would say when they because I did struggle with maintaining and finding friends that really spoke to who I am. But one I would say the quality over quantity like it's not about having the 20 people in a huge group and you have so many friends it's like if there is one person regardless of what they look like regardless of gender identification regardless of sexual orientation to someone that you connect with like hold on to that person because that what you need. I believe everything comes back to a belonging aspect and I didn't feel like I belonged anywhere. So again that idea of the sound about what it looks like, it's about how it feels inherently and that will help you find your way in a world that is so based off of how you present or perceive yourself. The other thing that I would say is that aspect of having that feeling of belonging would have helped younger Carly not create comparison and everything I find patterns and everything I can find ratio and look at two groups and notice the pros and cons and differences and sameness is because I was Seeing all of my differences and couldn't find a place for them and so I think that's the really like the biggest thing I would I would tell her is not only this idea of run not comparing yourself to others, but that like the comparison, everything is a comparison if you make it a comparison. And just more focused on who you are, those different aspects of yourself and not seeing why they don't fit into one group or why they kind of fit into another, or maybe they don't fit in anywhere in your perspective. But just more focused on nurturing all of those aspects instead of finding a place to put them. Not always a puzzle, Carly. It's not always a puzzle.

Steph Stock:

You know what I think is so beautiful about this conversation is I was expecting to come on here today and learn so much about transracial adoption, which I did, and throughout this entire conversation today, I'm like, oh, this is the same. And you mentioned belonging and acceptance. And I feel like there's so much of your story that resonates. okay, I'm not adopted, but I feel like a belonging and I feel a connection to this. A lot of the things that you have learned through navigating your identity really are like the life lessons that I think we just learned growing up,I was expecting to be on here and you tell me about all of these lessons that you learned about being adopted and... just what life has taught you, but it's like, yeah, those are lessons that I've learned too. I just didn't learn them through the same means and I didn't learn them in the same stories in my life. And I think that's really beautiful.

Carly Que:

That is really beautiful. And I was gonna ask you, do you feel like, from what I just heard, do you feel like in some ways, that there's a wisdom about you? Like there is almost like an older soul because of those learnings that are maybe those social cues or just things you picked up on a little bit sooner than a other seven-year-old child would have?

Steph Stock:

I think anybody who's othered I think is forced to grow up faster. We see that a lot with young Black girls. And people say, let young Black girls be young Black girls. And I agree. And I wish that was the case. But for survival, it's not always that easy or that simple, right? It's the same thing with young Black boys. I think it's the same thing as me being Mixed when I compare to my White friends growing up. There's things that I had to deal with that they just never had to. So yeah, it forced me to grow up faster in ways that it may have happened for them. And I think that's just a product of being different in a society. Now had I grown up in a society, maybe that was more multicultural or grown up in a society where I looked like everyone else or had a similar background. Maybe it wouldn't be the same thing. But I do think overall being Mixed is kind of like a superpower. And I do think it gives you wisdom. Not to say that I'm so wise. I have a lot of naivete. I'm forcing you to ask yourself a lot of questions, which I think that inquiry is how wisdom comes about anyway.

Carly Que:

Hmm. Yeah, that's a beautiful answer. And I feel like a good way to look at it, where again, it's not putting things in a box. It's just perspective. Last question for you. I know you're interviewing me, but as you were talking, I was thinking then, the way that in which you grew up, I mean, has there been anything about, and I don't know your thoughts or wants around children or not, but even if it was like a younger niece, that maybe... through the same thing as you. Is there anything that you specifically would want them to glean early on, whether it's traveling in other countries or being in more multicultural spaces, anything that you think would help them navigate the world as a Mixed race individual? Just a little bit, let's just

Steph Stock:

So.

Carly Que:

say one percent better than you.

Steph Stock:

I'm so glad that you asked this question. I think it's great that you're asking me questions. I appreciate it. I recently listened to this podcast in which the host was interviewing. She was interviewing an author and the author said I wrote this book, I think to heal my teenage self. And then the host of the podcast said, without realizing it, I think I created this podcast to heal my younger self. And I listened to that and I was like, what do you mean without realizing it? I started this podcast because I was like, what would little Steph need to hear that I didn't hear? When I was growing up, a lot of people didn't talk about being Mixed race. They talked about being one or the other. They didn't talk about it just wasn't so much as much of a conversation as it is now. I think it's becoming more of a conversation because quite honestly, the demographic is growing. Also, the world is changing and we have more language and we're more open to having these conversations. But I'm hoping that this podcast will be a part of that where we can create language, we can have more open conversation, we can explore different ways to navigate these conversations because they're difficult. So I think that Like having this podcast and telling this story and hearing your story and other stories is a way for me to heal my younger self. What I would tell my younger self is like as advice is to ask the questions and don't be afraid to you. I was always afraid to ask questions. I was afraid to talk about these things. I could sense that they were taboo. And I think that now we're entering a state in the world where it's not as much of a taboo topic, but so I would say ask the questions and you're not wrong or bad for asking the questions. Like lean into that curiosity. And again, I think

Carly Que:

I

Steph Stock:

that's

Carly Que:

mean...

Steph Stock:

a life lesson. I don't think that's something that's just for Mixed kids. I just think for me and my personality, that's something that I had to learn and I learned it about it through being Mixed.

Carly Que:

And here you are now asking the questions. So I love that full circle.

Steph Stock:

Exactly. Well, thank you so much for allowing me to ask these questions. And I really appreciate you and your time and just you sharing your story.

Carly Que:

Me too, thanks for having me. It's been very, I'm going to butcher this word. So ended up that part. I'm one, it's been very cathartic.

Steph Stock:

You didn't butcher it? How did you butcher that?

Carly Que:

I did it because I gave myself time to prep as I was saying I'm going to butcher it. No, but really, this has been, I don't think I've ever spoken so candidly about my story. I think so many of these stories have lived in my head or lived in my journaling. And just even coming to be able to process and come into something in real time, like how we went back to the dating thing, and like, oh, that's why I did it. And then comparing and reflecting. Yeah, I feel like your idea for like getting a roundtable together of Mixed kids and let's just do this for I'm all for it.

Steph Stock:

Wouldn't it be fascinating a red table talk with Mixed kids? And I feel like you would have so many people who are like, oh my gosh, me too. But also, whoa, that's so different. If I could pull

Carly Que:

Mm-hmm.

Steph Stock:

a Mixed kid from every state in the US and just hear their story.

Carly Que:

I think

Steph Stock:

Maybe

Carly Que:

that's

Steph Stock:

it.

Carly Que:

how you change the world.

Steph Stock:

Season two.

Carly Que:

Season two, I'm serious though. I feel like for someone to see it laid out like that, 50 times, being like, oh, there is no box. There's never been a box. That's it. Yes.

Steph Stock:

actually Mixed. That's the crazy part is we're all actually Mixed.

Carly Que:

Mm-hmm.

Steph Stock:

Plot

Carly Que:

That's

Steph Stock:

twist.

Carly Que:

it. Yes.

Cue Music

I’d like to thank everyone who made this episode possible including Carly for offering her voice and sharing her story. If anything resonated with you today please don’t be shy about leaving a comment, sharing this episode with a friend or family member and leaving a review. A huge thank you to everyone who has been so supportive of Mixed With What. May we continue to have the hard conversations, ask the tough questions and always listen with love. See you next week on Mixed With What.